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	<title>Comments on: Ministry of Education&#8217;s List of 400 Characters for Taiwanese</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/</link>
	<description>The latest on the Taiwanese language, plus updates to Tailingua.com</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: sjcma</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-436</link>
		<dc:creator>sjcma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-436</guid>
		<description>Lu, as for the Hong Kong example, it didn't happen overnight. Even though an official list has been in existence for some time, you'll still find writings doing it the old way. One example is the character 啲, which used to be written with just the roman capital letter 'D'. The usage of 'D' is still quite common although I'd say that 啲 has probably slightly outpaced 'D' in the written media.

One thing has helped is having the entire set of special Cantonese characters be accepted within the Unicode character set so they can be typed. Once this barrier was overcome, their use becomes significantly easier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lu, as for the Hong Kong example, it didn&#8217;t happen overnight. Even though an official list has been in existence for some time, you&#8217;ll still find writings doing it the old way. One example is the character 啲, which used to be written with just the roman capital letter &#8216;D&#8217;. The usage of &#8216;D&#8217; is still quite common although I&#8217;d say that 啲 has probably slightly outpaced &#8216;D&#8217; in the written media.</p>
<p>One thing has helped is having the entire set of special Cantonese characters be accepted within the Unicode character set so they can be typed. Once this barrier was overcome, their use becomes significantly easier.</p>
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		<title>By: sjcma</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-435</link>
		<dc:creator>sjcma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-435</guid>
		<description>As Admin has pointed out, my thinking was never that the MoE in Taipei would talk with the MoE in Beijing (even though I did use the word 'counterpart'). Rather, I believe it would be wise to cooperate with Southern Min researchers/academics/quasi-gov't organizations on the mainland. Such cooperation should, ideally, be removed from any cross-straits politics and stick strictly to the linguistic issues at hand.

Obviously, such an exercise does have a political component to it as this is a result of a deliberate language policy.

However, seeing how both Minnan speaking sides have a vested interest in seeing the Southern Min language survive and thrive, I see that as strong basis for close cooperation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Admin has pointed out, my thinking was never that the MoE in Taipei would talk with the MoE in Beijing (even though I did use the word &#8216;counterpart&#8217;). Rather, I believe it would be wise to cooperate with Southern Min researchers/academics/quasi-gov&#8217;t organizations on the mainland. Such cooperation should, ideally, be removed from any cross-straits politics and stick strictly to the linguistic issues at hand.</p>
<p>Obviously, such an exercise does have a political component to it as this is a result of a deliberate language policy.</p>
<p>However, seeing how both Minnan speaking sides have a vested interest in seeing the Southern Min language survive and thrive, I see that as strong basis for close cooperation.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-433</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-433</guid>
		<description>Lu, I think what sjcma is suggesting is not that the Taiwanese deal with central government - there they would certainly encounter the problems you outline. 

However, there are a number of links with the University of Xiamen, for example, which could serve as the basis for greater co-operation. There are also a number of quasi-official bodies in Fujian which promote Southern Min.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lu, I think what sjcma is suggesting is not that the Taiwanese deal with central government - there they would certainly encounter the problems you outline. </p>
<p>However, there are a number of links with the University of Xiamen, for example, which could serve as the basis for greater co-operation. There are also a number of quasi-official bodies in Fujian which promote Southern Min.</p>
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		<title>By: Lu</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-428</link>
		<dc:creator>Lu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-428</guid>
		<description>SCJMA, cooperation with the mainland is very unlikely to happen. Not just because of the obvious cross-strait reasons, but also because the Chinese government is trying to have everyone speak Putonghua, and thus will not want any kind of promotion for fangyan like Minnanyu.

Your HK example sounds great. I do wonder how they did it though: how do you make newspapers and KTV places and all the rest change their habits, short of forcing them? However they did it, the MOE should learn from that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SCJMA, cooperation with the mainland is very unlikely to happen. Not just because of the obvious cross-strait reasons, but also because the Chinese government is trying to have everyone speak Putonghua, and thus will not want any kind of promotion for fangyan like Minnanyu.</p>
<p>Your HK example sounds great. I do wonder how they did it though: how do you make newspapers and KTV places and all the rest change their habits, short of forcing them? However they did it, the MOE should learn from that.</p>
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		<title>By: sjcma</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-419</link>
		<dc:creator>sjcma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 04:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-419</guid>
		<description>"Ian-tâu" (handsome) should be 嫣頭 rather than the suggested 緣投. 嫣 means pretty and 頭 means head.

"O-ló" (to praise) should be 謳咾 rather than 呵咾.

There may be others. Despite this shortcoming, I think it's a good first effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Ian-tâu&#8221; (handsome) should be 嫣頭 rather than the suggested 緣投. 嫣 means pretty and 頭 means head.</p>
<p>&#8220;O-ló&#8221; (to praise) should be 謳咾 rather than 呵咾.</p>
<p>There may be others. Despite this shortcoming, I think it&#8217;s a good first effort.</p>
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		<title>By: Movenon</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-417</link>
		<dc:creator>Movenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-417</guid>
		<description>Can you point out which ones on the list were not "pún-chī?"

This is interesting to me as someone who is trying to learn Taiwanese, but does not yet have access to that many materials. 

I think it's possible to submit characters to the Hong Kong government if you have a specific character you want in their HKSCS (Hong Kong Supplementary Character Set) that includes most of the Cantonese-exclusive characters, as well as random rare characters needed here and there for proper names. I haven't had time to look into this yet though, so don't take my word for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you point out which ones on the list were not &#8220;pún-chī?&#8221;</p>
<p>This is interesting to me as someone who is trying to learn Taiwanese, but does not yet have access to that many materials. </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s possible to submit characters to the Hong Kong government if you have a specific character you want in their HKSCS (Hong Kong Supplementary Character Set) that includes most of the Cantonese-exclusive characters, as well as random rare characters needed here and there for proper names. I haven&#8217;t had time to look into this yet though, so don&#8217;t take my word for it.</p>
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		<title>By: sjcma</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-415</link>
		<dc:creator>sjcma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-415</guid>
		<description>I'm not a fan of the list. In many instances, it suggests character usage that are wrong, yet popular, over the original characters (本字).

It's like teaching "lite" instead of "light" because everyone understands "lite" anyway and it's easier to spell and teach. Not an exact analogy, but close enough.

If the MoE is serious about Taiwanese characters, it should collaborate with its mainland Minnan counterparts to flush out any potential errors. Then, it should jointly publish this list on both sides of the strait that uses original characters as much as possible, including as much major regional variants as practical(i.e. Quanzhou, Zhangzhou). The remaining ones should either use phonetic loans or better yet, be created anew, keeping in mind the semantic/phonetic structure of many Chinese characters.

Again, I'll point to Hong Kong as a good example. Before an official list was published, many Cantonese words were created by the media and their use became widespread. After the HK gov't published an official list of characters based on research, some of these widely used characters fell by the wayside in favour of the original characters on the list. Change is possible and it all depends on the competencies of the bureaucrats running the show. But given MoE's stellar *cough* record on the issue, I'm not holding out much hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a fan of the list. In many instances, it suggests character usage that are wrong, yet popular, over the original characters (本字).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like teaching &#8220;lite&#8221; instead of &#8220;light&#8221; because everyone understands &#8220;lite&#8221; anyway and it&#8217;s easier to spell and teach. Not an exact analogy, but close enough.</p>
<p>If the MoE is serious about Taiwanese characters, it should collaborate with its mainland Minnan counterparts to flush out any potential errors. Then, it should jointly publish this list on both sides of the strait that uses original characters as much as possible, including as much major regional variants as practical(i.e. Quanzhou, Zhangzhou). The remaining ones should either use phonetic loans or better yet, be created anew, keeping in mind the semantic/phonetic structure of many Chinese characters.</p>
<p>Again, I&#8217;ll point to Hong Kong as a good example. Before an official list was published, many Cantonese words were created by the media and their use became widespread. After the HK gov&#8217;t published an official list of characters based on research, some of these widely used characters fell by the wayside in favour of the original characters on the list. Change is possible and it all depends on the competencies of the bureaucrats running the show. But given MoE&#8217;s stellar *cough* record on the issue, I&#8217;m not holding out much hope.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-414</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-414</guid>
		<description>Ah, that makes sense if it's a draft version. Thanks for letting me know - I've amended the post to reflect your comment.

Tongyong for Taiwanese is dead (and not really mourned). The MoE killed it when they selected Tâi-lô as their standard, as previously they were pretty much the only ones supporting Tongyong. POJ still has a community of users (both inside and outside the church), but as you say it's nowhere near the mainstream.

Realistically the only way any form of romanization is going to come into widespread use is with the help of massive assistance from government to mandate proper bilingual teaching (not this couple-of-hours-a-week cop-out we currently have), with Tâi-lô or POJ as the only method of writing. In other words, it's very unlikely indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, that makes sense if it&#8217;s a draft version. Thanks for letting me know - I&#8217;ve amended the post to reflect your comment.</p>
<p>Tongyong for Taiwanese is dead (and not really mourned). The MoE killed it when they selected Tâi-lô as their standard, as previously they were pretty much the only ones supporting Tongyong. POJ still has a community of users (both inside and outside the church), but as you say it&#8217;s nowhere near the mainstream.</p>
<p>Realistically the only way any form of romanization is going to come into widespread use is with the help of massive assistance from government to mandate proper bilingual teaching (not this couple-of-hours-a-week cop-out we currently have), with Tâi-lô or POJ as the only method of writing. In other words, it&#8217;s very unlikely indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: sjcma</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-413</link>
		<dc:creator>sjcma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-413</guid>
		<description>The second set of characters is only a draft and have not been officially released. Hence, they remain separate documents at the MoE.

Hong Kong can serve as an example of how to get these characters into common use because as everyone is well aware, POJ (or gasp, Tongyong) will never go mainstream in Taiwan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The second set of characters is only a draft and have not been officially released. Hence, they remain separate documents at the MoE.</p>
<p>Hong Kong can serve as an example of how to get these characters into common use because as everyone is well aware, POJ (or gasp, Tongyong) will never go mainstream in Taiwan.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-410</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 04:12:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tailingua.com/news/2008/03/19/ministry-of-educations-list-of-400-characters-for-taiwanese/#comment-410</guid>
		<description>Well, as it took the ministry a scant four years to come up with the first 300 characters, I wouldn't hold your breath.

The MoE has no power to mandate their use, but it is trying to act as a standardising body in this debate.

As for fonts, you've hit upon the central problem of making up new characters for Taiwanese (or indeed resurrecting archaic ones) - the lack of support. The best bet is probably &lt;a href="http://www.mojikyo.org/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Mojikyo&lt;/a&gt; as it contains the largest amount of characters, but realistically the difficulties of inputting these unusual characters presents a big hurdle to the easy use of a completely character-based system.

&lt;span class="tw"&gt;Lô-má-jī bān sòe!&lt;/span&gt; (Long live romanization!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as it took the ministry a scant four years to come up with the first 300 characters, I wouldn&#8217;t hold your breath.</p>
<p>The MoE has no power to mandate their use, but it is trying to act as a standardising body in this debate.</p>
<p>As for fonts, you&#8217;ve hit upon the central problem of making up new characters for Taiwanese (or indeed resurrecting archaic ones) - the lack of support. The best bet is probably <a href="http://www.mojikyo.org/" rel="nofollow">Mojikyo</a> as it contains the largest amount of characters, but realistically the difficulties of inputting these unusual characters presents a big hurdle to the easy use of a completely character-based system.</p>
<p><span class="tw">Lô-má-jī bān sòe!</span> (Long live romanization!)</p>
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